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 new tiering proposal

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thegediknight



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Join date: 2010-12-10

PostSubject: new tiering proposal   Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:09 pm

This is for coaches throughout the province of BC.

You may or may not be aware that there are some motions being voted on at the BCHSBBA AGM meeting next Saturday. The motions bring forth some significant changes to the way that Boys basketball would be structured in the province.

It is crucial that all coaches are aware of these motions so that they might be able to make an informed decision and place their vote as they see fit.

If you would like a copy of the proposal please reply to this message with your email and I will send you the file.

or email me at mathew.geddes@smus.ca
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bball guy



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:24 am

I've read the proposal. It is very scary, and will have a long term impact on the quality of high school basketball in B.C.. It will result in less kids wanting to play basketball as the best teams will not be allowed to compete against the best. It will impact not only private schools, but also public schools (traditional basketball schools - Pitt, Kitsilano, Tamanawis.........just to name a few).

If it is not broke, do not fix it.

This is reverse discrimination in effect. A kid who just happens to go to an A level school and is gifted in basketball, will no longer be given the choice to go to any other school and play the game he or she loves. This is illegal. BC High School Basketball does not have authority or power over this. This will become a political issue (big picture politics).

Sponsors will not want to associate themselves with a watered down version of high school basketball championships. Good-bye Telus.

And it will open the system to a lot of lawsuits.........and given the degree of interest on this forum, that is indeed a given. We live in a free world of choice, and taking that choice out of the system and suggesting that a certain school "owns" a player is RIDICULOUS. Sounds like left wing B.C. NDP philosophy and we are turning schools into unions. If a kid is interested in moving to a school that has a specialty in a certain area, he should be allowed to. Regulating the system does not work. The issue is Recruiting, and in my opinion, rules are in place and we just need to adhere to them. Look at this year's high school tourney, it is not tainted by recruiting.

I would suggest if this is passed, a movement will be brought forward to dismantle BC High School Basketball Association, bring the issue to the Minister of Education, and make this even bigger by including ALL kids who transfer schools in BC (Arts, theatre, French immersion, trades, etc....). New representation will be required. This is about the kids (not just the ones who are in large, public schools).

I hope that this vote fails. Man, do we need some leadership now more than ever.
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:36 am

bball guy wrote:
I've read the proposal. It is very scary, and will have a long term impact on the quality of high school basketball in B.C.. It will result in less kids wanting to play basketball as the best teams will not be allowed to compete against the best. It will impact not only private schools, but also public schools (traditional basketball schools - Pitt, Kitsilano, Tamanawis.........just to name a few).

If it is not broke, do not fix it.

This is reverse discrimination in effect. A kid who just happens to go to an A level school and is gifted in basketball, will no longer be given the choice to go to any other school and play the game he or she loves. This is illegal. BC High School Basketball does not have authority or power over this. This will become a political issue (big picture politics).

Sponsors will not want to associate themselves with a watered down version of high school basketball championships. Good-bye Telus.

And it will open the system to a lot of lawsuits.........and given the degree of interest on this forum, that is indeed a given. We live in a free world of choice, and taking that choice out of the system and suggesting that a certain school "owns" a player is RIDICULOUS. Sounds like left wing B.C. NDP philosophy and we are turning schools into unions. If a kid is interested in moving to a school that has a specialty in a certain area, he should be allowed to. Regulating the system does not work. The issue is Recruiting, and in my opinion, rules are in place and we just need to adhere to them. Look at this year's high school tourney, it is not tainted by recruiting.

I would suggest if this is passed, a movement will be brought forward to dismantle BC High School Basketball Association, bring the issue to the Minister of Education, and make this even bigger by including ALL kids who transfer schools in BC (Arts, theatre, French immersion, trades, etc....). New representation will be required. This is about the kids (not just the ones who are in large, public schools).

I hope that this vote fails. Man, do we need some leadership now more than ever.


Thanks for giving your thoughtful insight. I look forward to seeing the proposal whenever it becomes public. It should be made available to all before the vote, since it affects so many kids.
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bball guy



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:15 pm

The proposal only went to coaches.

There is an email strategy going on right now to reach as many coaches as possible before the middle of this week (as per the topic of this topic stream). If they do get the email and read the proposal (big assumption as it is long), they would not even have time to discuss this issue with their schools, parents and players to come to an informed, consensus driven decicision on what their school should do.
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ebe



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:29 pm

The proposals that are going to the AGM come from the President's committee which is comprised of BCHSBBA executive & Governors. This committee has met dozens of times and have sub-committee meetings with over 30 coaches from all levels as well as parents and community members. They also put out an online survey to all members which received over 100 responses and they had an open forum at the BBC coaching clinic. The proposals have been sent out to all schools through the BCHSBBA website so I believe the committee has tried very hard to include all schools. Unfortunately it still seems to be a bit of a struggle to get the information out to everyone as there always seems to be some some gaps in communication. I think many of these motions are excellent and I think there are some that are not so good but hopefully we can get a big turnout of coaches to discuss them at our AGM. Bball guy I think perhaps that you may be a little alarmist about these proposals to say that they are scary might be a bit over the top. These proposals are centered around two main topics: tiering and transfers. the last time tiering was changed was over 25 years ago and the truth is we have way more schools playing than we did at that time. I remember when we went to three tiers and some people were talking about all the doom and gloom that it would bring but it has turned out to be very good for high school basketball. Adding a fourth tier with 4 tiers having around the same number of teams in it is potentially very exciting as it will give more kids the opportunity to make a provincial championship. It also could open up the possibility of running championships at the same venue which could be very exciting. Also bball guy there is not a single proposal that stops a kid from transfering there is some proposed new language around when transfer rules kick in but all of the fear mongering in your post about this issue is really not accurate. There are also proposals with regard to making eligibility decisions more transparent and including alumni and boosters in the recruting language. A huge amount of work has gone in to this report and now it will be in the hands of the membership to decide which proposals they want to move forward with.
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thegediknight



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PostSubject: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:33 pm

For the record, there was unanimous opposition to these motions at the AA coaches meeting here in Kamloops at the provincial tournament. There are a number of reasons why these proposals are not in the best interests of basketball in BC.

But opinions aside, due process was not followed with these motions. Contrary to what ebe says they were not sent out to coaches or Athletic Directors at schools. Perhaps some, but none that I know of. There were only two coaches at the AA meeting that were even aware that these proposals were in the works. Both of these coaches were from the Fraser Valley and both attended some sub-committee meetings.

Given the number of responses from coaches wanting to read the proposal for the first time, I would say that someone dropped the ball in terms of communication.

There really should be no way that these proposals should be voted on in a week considering how few schools are aware
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Sportvictoria



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:35 pm

ebe wrote:
The proposals that are going to the AGM come from the President's committee which is comprised of BCHSBBA executive & Governors. This committee has met dozens of times and have sub-committee meetings with over 30 coaches from all levels as well as parents and community members. They also put out an online survey to all members which received over 100 responses and they had an open forum at the BBC coaching clinic. The proposals have been sent out to all schools through the BCHSBBA website so I believe the committee has tried very hard to include all schools. Unfortunately it still seems to be a bit of a struggle to get the information out to everyone as there always seems to be some some gaps in communication. I think many of these motions are excellent and I think there are some that are not so good but hopefully we can get a big turnout of coaches to discuss them at our AGM. Bball guy I think perhaps that you may be a little alarmist about these proposals to say that they are scary might be a bit over the top. These proposals are centered around two main topics: tiering and transfers. the last time tiering was changed was over 25 years ago and the truth is we have way more schools playing than we did at that time. I remember when we went to three tiers and some people were talking about all the doom and gloom that it would bring but it has turned out to be very good for high school basketball. Adding a fourth tier with 4 tiers having around the same number of teams in it is potentially very exciting as it will give more kids the opportunity to make a provincial championship. It also could open up the possibility of running championships at the same venue which could be very exciting. Also bball guy there is not a single proposal that stops a kid from transfering there is some proposed new language around when transfer rules kick in but all of the fear mongering in your post about this issue is really not accurate. There are also proposals with regard to making eligibility decisions more transparent and including alumni and boosters in the recruting language. A huge amount of work has gone in to this report and now it will be in the hands of the membership to decide which proposals they want to move forward with.


I like most of what I have read. There is definitely one proposal I would not be in favour of. But the rest I like. Since it is not a package deal, that could work out well. Going to have a spend a chunk of time this weekend reading the package - all 23 pages of it.

The 4-tier system I like... that many more teams get to play for a BC title - I think that is a good thing.

I would just like to see no restrictions if a team wishes to move up, which as been the norm. Only that they would have to stay up for 2 years so they can't opt to move up... then back the next year. I believe that used to be a rule in BCHSBBA years back.

Tightening up recruiting rules I think is also a good thing - really, it's just closing loop-holes.


Lyle Dhur
Sportvictoria
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zoons



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:49 pm

I love these new proposals. The tiering issue is loooooong overdue. Just at the AA level the difference between school size is ridiculous. The AA number of boys in gr.11 and 12 goes from 81-225. That is a huge difference. A school with 81 boys competing every year with one that can choose a team with over 200 hundred is not a level playing field. I truly hope that the tiering proposal goes through. Ebe makes a great point about unifying all the prov. championships. That would be awesome. Our own BC March Madness. A one week, AA the next, AAA after and then AAAA. How exciting would that be. That would also help curb transfers and recruiting as players at the A or AA level wouldn't feel a need to be noticed at only one championship, they would all be going to the same venue and hopefully with similiar (inclusive) press and notoriety. Why not play at your school level and size? They do it in the best basketball nation in the world...the u.s. It doesn't matter what school you go to there...they all go to the state championships at the same venue. We seem to think that the US basketball isn't doing it properly? Let's follow their lead and learn from the best high school basketball system.

As for the transfer proposals. As it stands right now any student can go wherever they want. No one stands in anyones way of transfering. That is not going to change with the new proposal. Right now if you transfer after gr. 10 you have to sit out of league and playoff games for 1 season. Most programs have lots of exhibtion games and practices for transfers to join in on. It isn't working. Kids are just transfering before gr. 10 or simply transfering and playing a whole season minus a few lg. games and the playoffs. The goal is to strengthen high school basketball overall. More competitive schools, more opportunities for playoff success, more boys wanting to play in their region. The proposal moves the transfer cutoff from gr.10 to the first year in high school (gr.8or9) and makes it a real year to sit out. No exhibtion gms, no practice. That could really make transfers think twice. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I look forward to the voting process next Sat.

Ebe....what is the voting process gonna look like? Can there be proxy votes???
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Mark Scott



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PostSubject: What's good for the goose?   Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:31 pm


If coaches transfer schools are they prevented from coaching that year.......?
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thegediknight



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PostSubject: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:16 pm

My intention of putting this topic on the forum was not for discussion as this is certainly not the most appropriate venue.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is why it is important for all schools to first have the opportunity to actually read the motions and to have the opportunity to digest the magnitude of the changes.

If you have read the motions and you are a coach, go to the meeting, discuss your view point and vote. If you have not read the motions, don't listen to those who would wish to sway you one way or the other. Make up your mind for your self and for your school.

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bball_6319



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:44 pm

zoons wrote:
Right now if you transfer after gr. 10 you have to sit out of league and playoff games for 1 season.

Unless you go to WRCA you mean
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Lefon Jang



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PostSubject: AAAA   Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:55 pm

What is the criteria to be in AAAA, is it based on the number of transfers or the strength of a school’s basketball team?
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zoons



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:16 pm

All tiers would be based only on the enrollment of the school. They would have an equal amount of schools in each tier. I can't remember the exact number......I think it was like 68 schools per tier.
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ceelow75



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:01 am

im hoping if someone can answer this question.

If a player was playing at an independent school 1 year then decide to transfer to a public school, would the player have to sit out a year.

I've been hearing different things. I heard that if the player transfer to the school that is in his catchment area, he didnt have to sit out. But if he went to a school that isnt in his catchment area, he would have to sit out.

Anyone know if this is true or not?
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bball guy



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PostSubject: Re: new tiering proposal   Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:43 pm

This year in Junior ball, WRCA beat SMU to win the Provincial championship (all schools elibible). I know a lot can change in the next couple of years, but these new tiering systems automatically put WRCA into A level ball, and SMU into AAA. In theory then, these schools will be better than the AAAA schools. WRCA goes to A level and can't play up, SMU goes to AAA. Traditional power like PITT no longer will be at the AAAA tourney (we will miss Coach Goulet doing his thing).

Let's assume 3rd place finisher in Junior this year Mouat wins AAAA in 2 years, but never played WRCA , Pitt or SMU. What did they really win ?? I think kids will want to play against the best competition, and the best teams. We won't see Mouat vs wrca again in a meaningful game.

This proposed system is exactly the same as volleyball (except the transfer issue in basketball is even more stringent)..........a real yawner when it comes to the provincial championship tournaments. Nobody knows who was the best volleybal team last year? The best games are played in tournaments where the top teams compete.

We should just give everyone a ribbon for participation. This proposal is a huge setback for BC high school basketball.

If this system does get approved, they need to grandfather it in.........i.e.) make it the system beginning in 2014.

I wonder what Steve Nash would think? He transferred in Grade 11 (sat out 1 year), and played at SMU. Why did he move from Arbutus to SMU?
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